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Thread: Gun Groups Wary of Obama's New Firearms Initiative: 'Devil's in the Details'

  1. #1

    Gun Groups Wary of Obama's New Firearms Initiative: 'Devil's in the Details'

    Gun-rights advocates responded broadly to President Obama's measures aimed at keeping firearms away from the mentally ill, with many conveying a general mistrust of the administration on gun issues and cautioning that "the devil's in the details" of the newest proposals.

    "Nobody, including gun owners, wants anyone with a severe mental illness to be able to get a gun," Dave Dalton, founder of the American Gun Owners Alliance, told Newsmax. "And all the shootings we've seen over the last year have been by someone who has been mentally unstable.

    "But the fact of the matter is, they're addressing something in a way that makes gun owners nervous — and the devil's going to be in the details."

    "We really have a problem with what they're doing and the way they're doing it," said Jeff Knox, director of the Firearms Coalition. "Congress has looked at this issue and has rejected action on this issue.

    "When Congress looks at something and says 'no', that's not traditionally a green light for the White House to go and do it on their own.

    "That's an overreach on the part of the executive — and if we had a Congress and a system that was functioning properly, they would slap him down for this and they would refuse to allow this to happen," Knox said.

    Under the measures announced by the White House, the Justice Department will propose changes to the federal background check system to clarify who under U.S. law is prohibited from possessing a firearm because of mental health problems.

    The Department of Health and Human Services also will propose a regulation aimed at making it easier for states to submit information about the mentally ill to the federal system, without blocking all people who seek mental health treatment from owning guns.

    “The administration is committed to making sure that anyone who may pose a danger to themselves or others does not have access to a gun,” the White House said in a statement. “The federal background check system is the most effective way to assure that such individuals are not able to purchase a firearm from a licensed gun dealer.”
    Gun Groups Wary of Obama's New Firearms Initiative: 'Devil's in the Details'

    In surface it looks very interesting, now this should be checked deeper and in details.

    The only solution on this issue is coming together without ulterior motives, and put aside political agenda, to find solutions that will reduce significantly firearms access to the crazy people doing horrible things.

    What is your thought on this matter?
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  2. #2
    There is very good reason to be distrustful of this president. There has yet to be anything honest about any of Obama's initiatives. Watch what he does, not what he says. They are never the same.

    The problem with the mental health issue is that no one will argue against it if someone is genuinely disturbed. All of the mass murderers in recent years have had histories of mental illness, where being treated with psychotropic medications and were gamers. There is a pattern.

    But if a government doctor or a court is allowed to declare someone mentally ill, or if you fall into that category simply because you are prescribed an anti-depressant, the good intent will disintegrate. Under ObamaCare, government employees do have access to your medical records. Even a past history of depression could end up revoking your gun rights.

    Rights are rarly taken away in one large chunk. More often they are taken away incrementally, a little at a time.

    I do not trust this president and there is little justice in our current racist Justice Department. There is a scam lurking behind almost everything they do.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    There is very good reason to be distrustful of this president. There has yet to be anything honest about any of Obama's initiatives. Watch what he does, not what he says. They are never the same.

    The problem with the mental health issue is that no one will argue against it if someone is genuinely disturbed. All of the mass murderers in recent years have had histories of mental illness, where being treated with psychotropic medications and were gamers. There is a pattern.

    But if a government doctor or a court is allowed to declare someone mentally ill, or if you fall into that category simply because you are prescribed an anti-depressant, the good intent will disintegrate. Under ObamaCare, government employees do have access to your medical records. Even a past history of depression could end up revoking your gun rights.

    Rights are rarly taken away in one large chunk. More often they are taken away incrementally, a little at a time.

    I do not trust this president and there is little justice in our current racist Justice Department. There is a scam lurking behind almost everything they do.
    I agree with you Top, but we cannot have status quo.

    Personally I believe that the gov didn't investigate deep enough to the real causes and by that I mean the increasing psychotropic medications side effects. Most of the mentally sick people involved in these incidents were under influence of these very powerful psychotropic medications. That's the starting point, now like you said many mentally sick people don't fall in the killer category, but instead many of them taking psychotropic medications are.

    In my personal opinion the gov did go half way, omitting the most important element: psychotropic medications side effects.

    You sure know that they aren't going after the ones to whom contribute to their electoral campaign, so they aren't making decisions or looking for the real causes.

    It is interesting like I said above, only if we come together without ulterior motives, and put aside political agenda. In this way perhaps people will be smart enough to see that big pharma aka psychotropic medications with side effects are for a big part responsible for most of these massacres. Perhaps they should review their product formulas.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  4. #4
    Just for the readers information:SSRI


    THE ASSASSINATION OF OUR YOUTH

    SSRIs, or selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, are the pharmaceutical companies latest cash cows. Their use has skyrocketed in the last ten years. Nicknamed "Chemical Babysitters" and designated anti depressants, they are causing dozens of murders, thousands of psychoses and are altering the minds of millions of users. All but a very few of the latest "Mass Murderers" have been on these drugs. Schools encourage parents to put their children on these drugs for the smallest signs of "non conformity". Schools receive more money for "disabled" students.


    Here is one of the most informative articles on SSRIs I've found by Dr. Julian Whitaker MD

    The Scourge of Prozac

    When I first heard about the Columbine High School massacre, my initial thought was, "Lord help us, were they taking Prozac?" Nine days later, it was reported that Eric Harris, one of the shooters, was taking Luvox, which, like Prozac, Zoloft and Paxil, belongs to the class of drugs known as selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). In one out of every 25 children taking it, Luvox causes mania, "a psychosis characterized by exalted feelings, delusions of grandeur�and overproduction of ideas."

    Guns Are Blamed, but What About Prescription Drugs?
    Likely due to pressure from the pharmaceutical industry-heavy advertisers in all media-the national debate on the epidemic of teen violence has ignored the widespread use of prescription drugs in teens and particularly those who have committed monstrous acts. However, the drug-violence link is frighteningly common. Fifteen-year-old Shawn Cooper of Notus, Idaho, fired a shotgun at students and school staff. According to his stepfather, he had been taking an SSRI. Thirteen-year-old Chris Fetters of Iowa killed her favorite aunt. She was taking Prozac. Kip Kinkel, a 15-year-old youth, went on a rampage in Oregon. He first shot and killed his parents, spent the night with the bodies (characteristic of the dissociative reaction these drugs often cause), then killed two and wounded 22 of his fellow students at Thurston High School. He was taking Prozac.

    SSRI Drugs Can Turn People Into Monsters
    Look, folks, these are the acts of monsters. The accessibility of guns and violent movies alone does not create monsters out of children. But prescription drugs that markedly alter brain chemistry can-and do! Particularly drugs like Prozac, which are, in my opinion, the chemical equivalent of a ghoulish Stephen King monster hiding in the closet. A few people have tried to warn the neighborhood, but no one is listening. And SSRIs don't backfire in children only. In November 1991, 66-year-old Barbara Mortenson attacked her 81-year-old mother, biting her more than 20 times and leaving chunks of flesh strewn on the floor. Barbara had been taking Prozac for the previous two weeks. Kristine Marie Cushing, age 39, had been separated from her husband for several months. In October 1991, she took a .38-caliber pistol and shot and killed both of her children, Elizabeth age 8, and Stephanie Marie, age 4, while they lay sleeping in their beds, then shot herself, inflicting a non-fatal wound. Prosecutors stated that they "couldn't find one iota of information to show that she was anything but a very giving, caring and sweet human being." After a plea of insanity, she was committed to a mental institution. What made her snap? She had been taking Prozac. Ann Blake Tracy, Ph.D., author of Prozac: Panacea or Pandora?, has been studying the violent, dark side of SSRI drugs for ten years. She has researched 32 murder/suicides that involved women and their children. By interviewing their families and studying autopsy reports, news accounts and medical histories, she has determined that in 24 of these 32 cases, the women were taking Prozac or another SSRI.

    These Drugs Alter Normal Brain Function
    The explosive nature of these drugs is predictable. Studies show that they can cause a condition known as akathisia. Akathisia comes from the Greek word meaning "can't sit still," and refers to significant physical and mental agitation. Akathisia is to violence what a match is to gasoline. This condition has been reported in one out of 16 Prozac users, but its incidence is likely under-reported because Prozac also produces mania, hypomania, anxiety and restlessness, which are first cousins of akathisia. The defenders of Prozac say that millions are being helped by it, but this claim is spurious. In the clinical trials submitted to the FDA for registration, Eli Lilly studied the drug in less than 300 people and for only four or six weeks. However, one out of every seven participants dropped out of the study because of side effects of the drug. In fact, in a recent evaluation of the usage of Prozac and other SSRIs, it was found that nearly 70% of those who are prescribed the drug do not take it as prescribed, probably due to its undesirable side effects. Imagine that, for a drug touted to make people feel better! Furthermore, there are no studies demonstrating that taking any antidepressant prevents suicide or violent behavior. In fact, according to Peter Breggin, M.D., author of Your Drug May Be Your Problem, "there is substantial evidence that many classes of psychiatric drugs-including antidepressants, such as SSRIs-can cause or exacerbate depression, suicide, paranoia and violence." Did you know that one out of every 12 patients (and this figure, too, is likely under-reported) admitted to mental hospitals for psychosis is taking SSRIs?

    Even the Bright Side of SSRIs Is Dark
    As Dr. Breggin points out in his earlier book, Talking Back to Prozac, these drugs rob people of their humanity-they lose their capacity for empathy. "A lot of what we are seeing is individuals losing their feeling for the people in their lives. They stop caring about their husbands or wives or children. They stop caring about God." Though zombie-like numbness may initially be felt to be an improvement by someone with depression, it can hardly be considered healthy, or even desirable. It is this loss of empathy in my opinion, that allowed Kip Kinkel to kill both of his parents, then spend the night in the same room before heading out to shoot his classmates in Oregon. It is precisely why Eric Harris could wander around shooting his classmates in Columbine High School, even kids he liked, and laugh about it. It's beyond my comprehension how any doctor could knowingly prescribe a drug that may generate violence and numb the individual to its consequences!

    We Are the Drug Companies' Guinea Pigs
    This is not the first time Eli Lilly and other large drug companies have polluted our culture with mind-altering, hallucinogenic drugs. Did you know that Eli Lilly first produced and marketed LSD as a legal drug in the 1950s, promoting it as an aid to psychoanalysis, a cure for alcoholism and a way to clear up mental illness? Did you know that PCP, often referred to as angel dust-one of the most dangerous street drugs because it produces irrational, violent behavior-was once legally marketed as an analgesic and painkiller by Parke-Davis? Did you know that both LSD and angel dust act by increasing serotonin levels in the brain, precisely the same mechanism of SSRIs? Dr. Tracy reports that people who have taken LSD in the past sometimes have LSD flashbacks when given Prozac or a similar drug. These drugs are not helping people. At best, they blunt your experience of both the joys and the sorrows of the human experience. At worst, they are our most frightening nightmare.

    More SSRI-induced Tragedies
    Two years ago, Matthew Miller had achieved every 13-year-old boy's dream-he had reached 100 pounds. He had also changed schools and was a little melancholy. He saw a psychiatrist, who gave him some samples of Zoloft, an SSRI, with the instructions to "give it a try for a week." His parents were happy and trusting, though a little perplexed that it all seemed so easy and that no other form of therapy was even mentioned to help Matthew with what they felt was a common adjustment reaction for a child his age. The drug produced akathisia in Matthew. His sister complained that he was being loud and bothering her more than normal. His grandmother noted that Matthew "could hardly sit still through our Sunday brunch." In the early morning hours of his seventh day on Zoloft, Matthew committed suicide. He hanged himself in his closet. His father, now painfully aware of what these drugs can do, wrote: "There was no cry for help. No scream. Nothing�but that single, fateful, horrifying and irreversible act. For a bright, healthy and loved young man, Matt had every reason to live. Yet under the power of this debilitating drug, he found a way to die. We know it was not our Matt who took his own life. This was a Matt 'high' on a legalized pill. Reality and nightmares became indistinguishable for him. The universe that was his chemically stimulated, serotonin-enriched, emotionally tortured brain came crashing down around him with such ferocity, he had no way out."

    We Must Get the Word Out
    Drug companies are pushing to sell more and more SSRIs, thereby drugging larger segments of our population. Believe it or not, it's reported that many children under the age of three have already been given Prozac, and it will soon be made in flavored form for children! Folks, you must educate yourself and others on this issue. There are at least two current lawsuits against Pfizer, the manufacturer of Zoloft. The family of the late television actor Phil Hartman claims that Brynn Hartman, Phil's wife and the mother of their two children, aged 9 and 7, was under the influence of Zoloft when she shot and killed her husband while he was sleeping, then killed herself. Another SSRI murder-suicide. The family of Matthew Miller is also suing the company over the fatal consequences of this drug in their son. As evidence like this mounts, the tide is bound to turn against these dangerous drugs and, just like LSD and PCP, I believe they will ultimately be taken off the market. It's just a question of how much human suffering must be endured before that occurs.
    [/QUOTE]


    Peter Jennings ABC News: September 15, 1999
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  5. #5
    That is an interesting Peter Jennings article. Being the bleeding heart liberal that he was (he is now past tense), I'm surprised that he did not blame the guns, but he obviously found a larger bugaboo--the pharmaceutical companies.

    If he was alive today, he would likely be jumping on the Obama bandwagon and would blame guns. I'm not sure that the article was written by Peter Jennings. It appears to be written by Dr. Julian Whitaker MD and incorrectly attributed to Peter Jennings by that web site. That would make more sense. There is a Peter Jennings article further down the page.

    There are similar issues with drunk driving, but that is a more rational argument. Drunk drivers are blamed for drunk driving. You do not hear anyone blaming cars (the equivalent of a gun) or alcohol (the equivalent of psychotropic drugs). But when it comes to guns, they lose sight of the shooters and the drugs and blame guns. If they are going to use the same argument, we should logically ban the use of cars in order to prevent drunk driving fatalities.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  6. #6
    Though the article seems to draw conclusions on anecdotal evidence, the point is well taken in the respect that we are experiencing mass shootings in recent decades that we didnt experience in our own childhoods and earlier... And the problem is not related to easier access to firearms. Firearms were just as lethal amd MUCH easier to obtain in stronger varieties in the early 60s and prior. Heck in the 30s you could buy a Tommy gun or a mil-grade BAR.

    The author attirbutes it to changes in medications. Maybe, doesnt have more than anecdotes to back it. There has been an overall change in social attitudes over that course. Our current society doesnt as a group really believe in right and wrong, they believe in legal and illegal. Not the same.

    Now, nobody is raised thinking they need to do what is right or good, they are taught to look out for themselves, the world owes them a living, it isnt fair that others have what they dont, etc. whether you do or dont like the religion the US traditionally believes, you must admit that prior to its cessation to be the driving force it once was, we had a helluva lot less issues.

    We coddle kids and let them be raised by a box plugged into the wall where they are taught to role play killing other, we stifle every effort to allow them to work out aggressions and right their own injustices, and we wonder why they're whackos? I think kids raised today are walking time bombs with no moral compass. With or without meds
    -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup. --

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by robjones View Post
    Our current society doesnt as a group really believe in right and wrong, they believe in legal and illegal. Not the same.

    Now, nobody is raised thinking they need to do what is right or good, they are taught to look out for themselves, the world owes them a living, it isnt fair that others have what they dont, etc. whether you do or dont like the religion the US traditionally believes, you must admit that prior to its cessation to be the driving force it once was, we had a helluva lot less issues.
    I believe that social issues have different causes, but when big pharma is fucking youth brains with powerful psychotropic medications taken like candies, it doesn't matter what morality you may have. Don't forget that medications kill much more people than criminal shooting atrocities.

    The western societies in general are like the Manhattan project, things "evolved" in each independent side on social issues for a final goal, the total domination of the world by whatever means necessary.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  8. #8
    Not discounting the probability of a pharmacological connection... Just figure it goes hand in hand with the lack of parenting. Its easier to drug kids than train them not to be fucking jackasses.
    -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup. --

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by robjones View Post
    Not discounting the probability of a pharmacological connection... Just figure it goes hand in hand with the lack of parenting. Its easier to drug kids than train them not to be fucking jackasses.
    You are right Rob, the lack of parenting, etc come from an agenda of domination.

    In my opinion, here is the list and it is valid for any country:

    Domination by Media
    Domination by Work availability
    Domination by Hunger
    Domination by Economical Buying Power
    Domination by Corruption
    Domination by Policies (even if it is against the people)
    Domination by More Laws than necessary
    Domination by Destroying Parenting, Religion, anyway everything that divide people
    Domination by Taxation
    Domination by Forces.

    Feel free to add some more

    Some people at the top could pull the strings they want to create smoke screens, divert attention, etc
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by robjones View Post
    Though the article seems to draw conclusions on anecdotal evidence, the point is well taken in the respect that we are experiencing mass shootings in recent decades that we didnt experience in our own childhoods and earlier... And the problem is not related to easier access to firearms. Firearms were just as lethal amd MUCH easier to obtain in stronger varieties in the early 60s and prior. Heck in the 30s you could buy a Tommy gun or a mil-grade BAR.
    When I was a kid no one thought anything about owning guns. Anyone could go down to their local hardware store and purchase a gun. I owned my first shotgun when I was 12 years old.

    I am not sure that Hollywood can be blamed, either. There were lots of westerns and detective movies with gunfights. The main differences were that the bad guys always go shot and there wasn't any blood.

    There are good reasons why almost all psychotropic drugs come with suicide warnings. Perhaps someone's guns need to be in police protective custody whenever someone is taking these meds, and released if or when the mental issues are resolved and the person is off the meds.

    Improved background checks won't do a damn bit of good until Obama's HIPAA rules are revised. That is what prevented two shrinks from reporting James Holmes prior to the Colorado shooting. We need a central database where doctors can report people on these types of drugs.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


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