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Thread: Lessons to be learned by the RNC from 2012 electoral losses

  1. #1

    Lessons to be learned by the RNC from 2012 electoral losses

    I've been listening to the talking heads on Fox, specifically Gibson, but others as well, including the Peggy Noonan and Bill Kristol, talking about changes needed in the Republican positions. Some of the things mentioned were:



    • Embracing Immigration Reform/Amnesty
    • Taking a softer line on the budget
    • Selling our ideas with a carrot instead of stick



    There seems to be quite a bit of self doubt and sour grapes. I suppose that is a natural reaction to an electoral loss, and while I think it is right and proper to constantly reafirm the validity of your ideas, it seems a bit odd for people to suddenly be considering something that was anathema only a few days ago.


    I've spent a little time thinking about it and have come to a few conclusions of my own, but I wanted to hear some other opinions before putting it all to print.


    Your thoughts?

  2. #2
    We have to do something to woo more minority voters, but with 95% of blacks voting for Obama simply because he is black, and recent studies that show that Hispanics are primarily driven by whoever offers them the most freebies, I am coming to the conclusion that common sense will never prevail with most minorities and we may be past the tipping point for the downfall of the country. The Takers are winning.

    Sorry, but a carrot will not soothe a rabid Pit Bull, but a stick may save your life when he wants a bigger piece of you. The problem isn't with Conservative ideas that appear to punish people. The problem is with a liberal media who always portray any rational solution as being radical and draconian. Most people do not know anything beyond what they hear from the media or from their friends who heard something from the media. The media is destroying this country. Liberal politicians are simply some of the tools that they use.

    I think Republicans need to prove that they can get something done that shows tangible, positive results.

    - The Republican Congress was elected with a mandate to reduce spending and get the budget under control. They have not done that.

    - The Republican Congress was elected with a promise to repeal Obamacare. They have not done that.

    We need to get the rampant fraud in Social Security Disability, food stamps and welfare under control. The fraud has increased dramatically under Obama, which is buying votes.

    We need to shore up entitlement programs that people feel they have invested in all of their lives, such as Social Security retirement, but the only progress has been a lot of lip flapping.

    It is not mathematically possible to solve the deficit problem without raising the taxes on everyone, including most of the 47% who pay zero taxes (retirees excluded). Perhaps doing so will put more pressure on politicians to get the spending spree under control. The problem is that this topic has become the kiss of death politically. Sorry boys and girls, there isn't any other way to solve the problem. None of the proposed solutions from either party have any chance of working.

    The root of the problem lies with more and more people who see politicians who are lying, cheating and not bound by the same rules as the rest of us. That has caused a huge change in the moral compass of most Americans. Someone in government needs to lead by example, and Obummer is not likely to change his stripes and do something that is good for the country. He is too focused on buying support from the growing number of people looking for freebies.

    I currently do not see any hope for turning the country around without a major economic collapse, a revolution, or both. It is coming. It is just a matter of time.

    This blood curdling rant of utter despair is brought to you by Preppers Anonymous.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    This blood curdling rant of utter despair is brought to you by Preppers Anonymous.
    Feelings of desperation and futility are unproductive and unhealthy. They don't sell well.


    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    I think Republicans need to prove that they can get something done that shows tangible, positive results.


    - The Republican Congress was elected with a mandate to reduce spending and get the budget under control. They have not done that.


    - The Republican Congress was elected with a promise to repeal Obamacare. They have not done that.

    Those slackers! I think the congressional reps we sent to congress have done all they can, but lets face it. The house can do nothing on it's own, and it's members are up for reelection every two years, which makes it harder to keep persistent pressure on.


    I tend to divide my thinking on this subject into two areas


    1) Are we pursueing the right goals on controversial topics (i.e.Immigration enforcement, The Tax Code, Gay Marriage, Drug Enforcement, Health Care, Abortion)


    2) Are we doing the right things to win this argument with the American people.




    Take immigration for example. Like you, I am against amnesty. When I heard Gibson saying we should consider it, I thought, "You loser! You have no core values!". Then I gave it some more thought and I said to myself, "Ok, Gibson wants to make some concessions so we can win some elections and gain victories on other topics that are more important". Then I asked myself, "How are we going to win any other electoral victories if we are granting citizenship to natural born liberals?"


    It was a moment of introspection followed by what might be a moment of zen.


    I dug a bit deeper and said, why am I against amnesty? Do I hate latinos? Do I fear they will all vote Democrat and change our country into a third world banana republic? Wasn't Reagan the original creator of the amnesty idea?


    The problem with Amnesty, I concluded was not that Latinos are natural born Democrats. The problem is that Amnesty bypasses those who wait in line by the letter of the law to become US citizens. The problem is that flooding or population with poor people is a great way to bankrupt your social services, which were never budgeted to handle so many people.


    Reagan granted a "one time" amnesty in belief that our immigration laws would be tightened in a way that the people already here would be behind the gates which would then be closed. The actual effect of amnesty was to provide an incentive to people from every third world rathole on the planet to get across our borders and become a defacto citizen. I don't think he ever forsaw the cost involved in trying to enforce those immigration laws or block the tidal wave of people who would flow across our borders.


    My opinion, up till now, has been to focus less on the borders and more on the interior. Deny services, voting, driving, you name it, to people who cannot produce state issued identification that proves legal residency. Fine employers who fail to check and verify those identifications. Require local police to verify citizenship of every person at every stop. If every state did this, our massive illegal immigration problem would be over within 12 months, and very cheaply.


    The problem is, such legislation has been and will be fought legislatively and legally at every step of the way. Republican big business owners who want the cheap labor don't like it. Democrats who want the voting base don't like it.


    The smart solution seems to be to embrace and improve Reagans idea. Grant the illegals amnesty. If they are not criminals, give them a green card, and let them get in line (the back of the line) to apply for citizenship. In the same legislation, put all of the draconian laws mentioned above to force the self deportation of illegals. It would eliminate the possibility of Amnesty being used as an incentive to come here. Simply proposing the legislation would put the Republican party in good favor with the Latino community, and put Democrats on their heels.


    I personally do not believe Latinos are natural born Democrats. They are hard working, fiercely family oriented, and generally religious (Christian). If anything, they are a natural fit to be conservatives.


    I suspect there are strategic and nuanced moves that could be made on almost every conservative position that would grant electoral victories without sacrificing core values.

  4. #4
    I tend to agree with Charles Krauthammer. Everyone was taking part in the idea the party was dead in 2008, then it came back and kicked butt in the midterms in 2010. The party is not dead, and neither is conservative thought. Not by a longshot.

    This election could have been handled better, and frankly there's a lot of voter fraud that suggests the campaign still did better than appearances suggest. There's nothing wrong with introspection with an eye toward improvement, but bastardizing your principles for votes shouldnt be a part of it.

    Basically it makes sense to do self-assessment, but it isnt time to decide to lower our standards, just time to pinpoint areas of mutual agreement and avoid focus on extraneous issues that encourage circular firing squads.
    -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup. --

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by robjones View Post
    I tend to agree with Charles Krauthammer. Everyone was taking part in the idea the party was dead in 2008, then it came back and kicked butt in the midterms in 2010. The party is not dead, and neither is conservative thought. Not by a longshot.

    This election could have been handled better, and frankly there's a lot of voter fraud that suggests the campaign still did better than appearances suggest. There's nothing wrong with introspection with an eye toward improvement, but bastardizing your principles for votes shouldnt be a part of it.

    Basically it makes sense to do self-assessment, but it isnt time to decide to lower our standards, just time to pinpoint areas of mutual agreement and avoid focus on extraneous issues that encourage circular firing squads.
    Circular firing squads, like the DNC's vote to eject God from their party platform. Republicans are actually quite familiar with circular firing squads. We just saw one when people like Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich dragged the primary process out for a ridiculously long period of time.

    There are a couple post election points that I thought the liberals made rather well. 1) Their "get out the vote"/fraud machine was well oiled this election cycle, while Romney's broke down. 2) We owned the less racist white vote, while allowing the Democrats to consolidate the "anti-white" vote.

    I guess what I am thinking about is a having a deep look at changing tactics on how to get what we want, as well as focusing on elements of what we want that have broad support, while marginalizing elements of what some of our factions want that have very narrow support. We scared the bejesus out of the liberals in 2010 by using quite a few tactics that were straight out of Saul Alinksy's rules for radicals. I rather enjoyed it.

    Boehner seems to be already engaged in a new type of strategy. He got in front of Americans on the day after the election, and said he would support some tax increases, assuming they were accompanied by tax reform and healthy cuts. Then, he basically repeated the tax plan Romney has been running on for the last year. I loved it.

  6. #6
    Forget where I read this....
    But the biggest problem with Romney/Ryan and the republican party?
    They did not fight with obama/biden and the democrat party.

    They played nice, while obama etal lied, cheated and stabbed.

    The republican party has to learn to not play by the rules, but to play like the democrats play!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by obamanation View Post
    1) Are we pursueing the right goals on controversial topics (i.e.Immigration enforcement, The Tax Code, Gay Marriage, Drug Enforcement, Health Care, Abortion)
    Those appear to be the losing arguments. They may be right, but with the press overwhelmingly opposed, it is hard to gain traction with the American people. Most people do no research at all and only believe what they hear. The Tea Party also has a lot of good ideas, but they are universally demonized by the liberal press. The last number I saw showed the Tea Party with a 70% disapproval rating, although most actual taxpayers agree with their ideas.

    Quote Originally Posted by obamanation View Post
    2) Are we doing the right things to win this argument with the American people.
    Apparently not. If we were, we would have overwhelming support from the American people.

    Quote Originally Posted by obamanation View Post
    The problem with Amnesty, I concluded was not that Latinos are natural born Democrats. The problem is that Amnesty bypasses those who wait in line by the letter of the law to become US citizens. The problem is that flooding or population with poor people is a great way to bankrupt your social services, which were never budgeted to handle so many people.
    That is why I have been saying that we need a viable guest worker program. There is also a problem with the Supreme Court. They have ruled that states have an obligation to pay welfare benefits to illegals, even though that sounds like a ludicrous conclusion. Remember that the will of the people does not matter when it comes to the courts. A case in point is California Proposition 187, which was passed with strong support (58%) and sought to deny public assistance benefits for illegals. It was overturned with the help of the ACLU.

    Quote Originally Posted by obamanation View Post
    Deny services, voting, driving, you name it, to people who cannot produce state issued identification that proves legal residency. Fine employers who fail to check and verify those identifications. Require local police to verify citizenship of every person at every stop. If every state did this, our massive illegal immigration problem would be over within 12 months, and very cheaply.
    I think most Americans would agree, but we are back to that little issue with the Supreme Court.

    Quote Originally Posted by obamanation View Post
    The smart solution seems to be to embrace and improve Reagans idea. Grant the illegals amnesty. If they are not criminals, give them a green card, and let them get in line (the back of the line) to apply for citizenship. In the same legislation, put all of the draconian laws mentioned above to force the self deportation of illegals. It would eliminate the possibility of Amnesty being used as an incentive to come here. Simply proposing the legislation would put the Republican party in good favor with the Latino community, and put Democrats on their heels.
    I initially thought the same as you, but if the recent studies are accurate, Hispanics votes are not driven by immigration issues. They come from countries with no social safety nets and believe that all power and money resides with the government. Most Hispanics simply vote for the party that offers them the most freebies.


    Quote Originally Posted by obamanation View Post
    I personally do not believe Latinos are natural born Democrats. They are hard working, fiercely family oriented, and generally religious (Christian). If anything, they are a natural fit to be conservatives.
    I see it almost the same way. However, there are a lot of bums that come here simply to get on the gravy train. I live in the Phoenix area, which is at the heart of the illegal immigration problem. Although there are some Mexican workers who do work very hard and should be allowed to stay, in recent years the greater percentage is not productive and does not benefit society. There are more Takers than Makers. It is an $2.6 billion in annual costs problem in Arizona. Most Mexicans moving here are not of European Spaniard descent. They are from poor Mexican Indian tribes who have never been educated, never had health care benefits and have always been openly discriminated against by the Mexican government. That is why the gravy train and legal protections in the USA are so appealing. The squirrels will never stop raiding your bird feeders as long as they are full of food and the squirrels are hungry.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    Those appear to be the losing arguments. They may be right, but with the press overwhelmingly opposed, it is hard to gain traction with the American people. Most people do no research at all and only believe what they hear. The Tea Party also has a lot of good ideas, but they are universally demonized by the liberal press. The last number I saw showed the Tea Party with a 70% disapproval rating, although most actual taxpayers agree with their ideas.
    I quite agree. I guarantee you could run two polls, side by side, one presenting tea party ideals without mentioning the tea party, the other presenting tea party ideals while referencing the tea party and you will see the one that doesn't reference the tea party come out 20-30 pts more popular.

    The liberal press isn't solely responsible for the current unpopularity of the tea party. People like Michelle Bachman, Rick Santorum, and Gov. Rick Perry are not exactly the best standard bearers. It becomes easy to call the Tea Party a bunch of hard religious fundamentalists when your self proclaimed standard bearers throw religious fundamentalism into the mix. We need more standard bearers like Col. West and Rand Paul. I like Paul Ryan, but when you run on overturning Roe V. Wade, you alienate most single women, and a large number of libertarian men.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    That is why I have been saying that we need a viable guest worker program. There is also a problem with the Supreme Court. They have ruled that states have an obligation to pay welfare benefits to illegals, even though that sounds like a ludicrous conclusion. Remember that the will of the people does not matter when it comes to the courts. A case in point is California Proposition 187, which was passed with strong support (58%) and sought to deny public assistance benefits for illegals. It was overturned with the help of the ACLU.
    This is a great point, and one that got me thinking. California recently passed, via ballot measure, a law that lets the state assembly pass a budget with a simple majority rather than 60%. In exchange, they put the rider that should they fail to pass a balanced budget, they go without pay.

    The first year in effect(last year), sure enough, they passed a budget with a bunch of gimmickry, and the the California State Controller denied them all pay for 3 months while they sorted it out. Not only did they cry like a bunch of babies, they sued and won, getting the rider clause declared null, void, and I believe unconstitutional. Now they get to pass whatever budget they want, without penalties.

    If a deal were to be struck, Amnesty in exchange for immigration enforcement laws that would work, there would have to be wording in the legislation that would make the two inseverable. If the reforms were challenged and found to be unconstitutional, the path to citizenship and green cards would die with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    I initially thought the same as you, but if the recent studies are accurate, Hispanics votes are not driven by immigration issues. They come from countries with no social safety nets and believe that all power and money resides with the government. Most Hispanics simply vote for the party that offers them the most freebies.
    The opposite is actually true. Most Hispanics come from poor socialist countries with state sponsored medical care. The ones who flee those countries come to the US for opportunity. Will there be big portion of them that want the "free stuff" they got back at home? Sure. My guess is, at least in the year we ran my immigration idea, we would carry 49 states. There is no denying there are a lot of these people here and they are not going anywhere so long as their defenders in the Democratic party and the business owners in the Republican party protect them. That means forever. Might as well have them vote for you while fixing the problem for good.



    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    in recent years the greater percentage is not productive and does not benefit society. There are more Takers than Makers. It is an $2.6 billion in annual costs problem in Arizona. Most Mexicans moving here are not of European Spaniard descent. They are from poor Mexican Indian tribes who have never been educated, never had health care benefits and have always been openly discriminated against by the Mexican government.
    Funny but true. I met a woman in Panama who was oogling my blond haired blue eyed daughter. I asked her what was up and she started down talking her own kid who had apparently come out too brown for her liking.

    Regarding the benefits in their own country, it simply isn't true. Like I said, they are all socialist, and they all provide free medical care. Granted, the product they get is complete crap, but its free and readily available.

    Regarding the level of education/quality of the person, I actually don't care. Someone has to pick our veggies, and poor uneducated people of Indian decent are no worse than the dirty Irish we brought over when we needed people to die to end slavery.. I understand we have immigration laws put in place to maintain our culture and values. If we fix this problem, those laws might actually be given a chance to work. Like the Irish, most people completely integrate within two generations. All the multi-culti folks might be able to drag that out to three generations, with all the "african american", "asian American", "Hispanic American" nonsense, but people long to conform at the end of the day.

    Lets quit putting fingers in a dyke that is bursting, and instead build a larger better, more permanent dam a few meters downstream and break the dyke ourselves.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    Those appear to be the losing arguments. They may be right, but with the press overwhelmingly opposed, it is hard to gain traction with the American people. Most people do no research at all and only believe what they hear. The Tea Party also has a lot of good ideas, but they are universally demonized by the liberal press. The last number I saw showed the Tea Party with a 70% disapproval rating, although most actual taxpayers agree with their ideas.


    Apparently not. If we were, we would have overwhelming support from the American people.


    That is why I have been saying that we need a viable guest worker program. There is also a problem with the Supreme Court. They have ruled that states have an obligation to pay welfare benefits to illegals, even though that sounds like a ludicrous conclusion. Remember that the will of the people does not matter when it comes to the courts. A case in point is California Proposition 187, which was passed with strong support (58%) and sought to deny public assistance benefits for illegals. It was overturned with the help of the ACLU.


    I think most Americans would agree, but we are back to that little issue with the Supreme Court.


    I initially thought the same as you, but if the recent studies are accurate, Hispanics votes are not driven by immigration issues. They come from countries with no social safety nets and believe that all power and money resides with the government. Most Hispanics simply vote for the party that offers them the most freebies.



    I see it almost the same way. However, there are a lot of bums that come here simply to get on the gravy train. I live in the Phoenix area, which is at the heart of the illegal immigration problem. Although there are some Mexican workers who do work very hard and should be allowed to stay, in recent years the greater percentage is not productive and does not benefit society. There are more Takers than Makers. It is an $2.6 billion in annual costs problem in Arizona. Most Mexicans moving here are not of European Spaniard descent. They are from poor Mexican Indian tribes who have never been educated, never had health care benefits and have always been openly discriminated against by the Mexican government. That is why the gravy train and legal protections in the USA are so appealing. The squirrels will never stop raiding your bird feeders as long as they are full of food and the squirrels are hungry.
    The problem that I see is the interest groups and average Americans do not have those. There is really no sense of unity across the board. In Europe it is very different, at least in the country where I live right now. People do not want foreigners here (I am a foreigner here, but I guess after 2 years residence and looking like the rest of them, I am considered one of them now) and they don't keep that a secret either.

    Of course, if you have some serious skills or a lot of money to pay the immigration officials, you are seeing nothing but open doors. But why not? Your presence here means improving the economic and educational level.

    When it comes to giving handouts however, you will not see any type of guilt towards those who come here to have a better life.

    Overall I see no real solutions in the US. It reminds me of Germany in the 80s. You had the two camps, one wanting no immigration at all and the other side using "white guilt" to demand opening the doors for everyone.

    Needless to say, Germany is now the country which is number 2 for national debt, even though their economy is booming.

    Per capita they are number 1.

    What is going on in the US was bound to happen. If you pay everyone else's debts and import extra responsibility, then you will never get ahead. You have two choices: Look out for your own best interest as everyone else or get the reputation of being a welfare state, and once the second kicks in, there will never be an end unless you take a stand and fix the hole in the bucket.
    I am also a writer for Serpholic Media. You can find some of my articles here: Serpholic Media Blog

  10. #10
    I think the issue in the USA with respect to immigration is that we have one camp (Republican) who don't have an issue with legal immigration. Our issue is with the illegal immigrants who come here just to milk the system, which is paid for with a diminishing supply of taxpayer dollars. The other camp (Democrats) either think that we need cheap labor to do the "dirty work" that they do not want to do, or they simply want to turn illegals into Democrat voters. We have over 20 million illegal Mexicans in the USA, which is a tempting future voter block for the Democrats.

    The immigration problem is relatively easy to resolve. We need a viable guest worker program, which has not existed since the 1960s when unions who support the Democrats got the program cancelled. We need to make it easy for good workers to get guest worker permits for immigrants who work in agriculture and landscaping. We also need to clamp down on the leaches and kick them out. Ideally, we should not have to pay benefits to people who are here illegally. That needs to be re-addressed with the courts who have ruled against the opinions of Americans. We also need to aggressively go after employers who hie illegal workers.

    The real problem keeps going back to the liberal news media, who demonize anyone who tries to do the right thing for the USA, or who comes up with a better idea that conflicts with liberal Democrat viewpoints. Almost anyone who seriously disagrees with Obama is labelled a racist, although race has nothing to do with the issues or the disagreement.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


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