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Thread: Walmart's Low Wages Could Cost Taxpayers $900,000 Per Year

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by obamanation View Post
    Minimum wage also raises everyone's costs. A thriving economy raises everyone's costs, because employees have better options and wont work for peanuts. I don't think it should be our goal to be India, where everyone makes a few dollars a day, but with such cheap labor, they can get by. I'd rather be Switzerland with a minimum wage of 17$/hr and have our citizens be able travel the world in wealth.

    I complely agree, and frankly it is healthy for the country to have workers well paid, people can afford to buy more stuff, if they buy more stuff there is more tax in the states, gov, and more profits for companies, more employments, etc

    What we are witnesses is a business model that generate wealth only to the top earners, and put a burden on states, gov deficits and social welfares. Less people work and more this business model will destroy our countries and everything in between. Plus you expose the country for economic dammages, structural dammages and social dammages.

    The walmart business model should be banned, period!

  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    I think we agree that the "too big to fail" concept is deeply flawed, as is "as goes GM, so goes the country." There is no basis in fact. It just a saying. We will never recover a large portion of the $38 billion we invested in GM to save the unions. The government is currently quietly selling off the $38 billion we paid for GM stock at around $53 per share, but they are selling it at the current price of around $33. This should have been a loan to be payed back with interest. That is the way it was done when they forced the banks to take bailout money, whether they needed it or not.
    Here I agree with you and the gov didn't do his job. GM unionized workers were paid $78 an hour, they fired 250,000 workers and kept the unionized workers at $58 an hour, that's outrageous! They should keep all workers and pay them $20 an hour to build the damn cars here in US entirely.

    Plus when you know how they builded these cars with 70% made in China, not only they completly screw up because they lost money but they also used the taxpayers money to bail out the Chinese companies!

    Like anything, it should be balanced and the globalization is costing a lot to the gov and the American people for so few good results.

  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
    Ok, here we go again with class war. Education is one thing and skill is another. Unions are always needed, because do you really think that big corp are going to stop the fight on regulations, wages and work condition?

    I have seen many many people doing bad at school and doing super great in business and in their labor qualification skills.
    It actually has nothing to do with class warfare. I'm not belittling the typical Walmart employee, but most are not people who have built productive lives. They have not built up much economic value. At least they are working and not living solely on the government dole. They have work ethics, but lack skills and training. If you do not agree, take a closer look. It may not be politically correct to stereotype people, but nonetheless stereotypes do exist and do accurately define large groups of people.

    Most people are paid what they are worth. If they are not, they have the option of improving their skills and moving on. Most union employees are paid much more than they are worth. No one is forcing anyone to work a low wage job, but raising wages only raises the cost for everyone else. The fact is that Walmart does not have any problem finding workers, even with the relatively low wage people are paid. They also do give good workers the opportunity to move into management positions where they are paid much more. I see it as a skills training opportunity for workers who have never built economically viable skills. When they build viable and marketable skills, they should try to move on to a better employment situation.

    Let's not fall into the trap of thinking that Walmart employees all work at minimum wage like the Democrats would have you think. Arizona is a low-wage state and Walmart starts inventory stockers (floor people) at about $10 per hour and cashiers at around $12. That is already higher than the current Federal minimum wage of $7.25 and Arizona minimum wage of $7.80, and also higher than the new proposed national minimum wage of $9.80. Managers make much more than this, and most managers come up in the ranks. In some states the starting wage is around $16 per hour. I suspect Walmart wages will rise very soon.

    Like I said, I do not have an issue with raising the minimum wage to something reasonable in today's economy, but I do have a problem when unions gain too much power and artificially force wages to be raised beyond anything reasonable given the job the workers have to do. They have already destroyed too much of the manufacturing base in this country by pricing their industries out of the market. It is not a coincidence that we no longer have a large steel production industry in the USA or that the taconite mining industry collapsed years ago. Both were driven by unions who drove the industries over the cliff.

    There are very good reasons why the Japanese always set up USA auto manufacturing facilities in non-union areas, which is also the reason why union auto manufacturers cannot compete on a level playing field with the Japanese. Japanese manufacturers do not underpay their employees, but they also do not pay union wages or offer lavish union benefits.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    Let's not fall into the trap of thinking that Walmart employees all work at minimum wage like the Democrats would have you think. Arizona is a low-wage state and Walmart starts inventory stockers (floor people) at about $10 per hour and cashiers at around $12. That is already higher than the current Federal minimum wage of $7.25 and Arizona minimum wage of $7.80, and also higher than the new proposed national minimum wage of $9.80. Managers make much more than this, and most managers come up in the ranks. In some states the starting wage is around $16 per hour. I suspect Walmart wages will rise very soon.
    I took walmart for example, it could be target, K mart, etc. I boycott these kinds of multi national corporations.

    We are talking about wages, but I think there are also other factors like the inflation. Every wages should be indexed regarding the inflation in my opinion. We shouldn't see people working for the private sector with equivalent skills paid less than the state, gov, cities.

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
    I took walmart for example, it could be target, K mart, etc. I boycott these kinds of multi national corporations.

    We are talking about wages, but I think there are also other factors like the inflation. Every wages should be indexed regarding the inflation in my opinion. We shouldn't see people working for the private sector with equivalent skills paid less than the state, gov, cities.
    Think about it. If you are going to boycott all multinational corporations that exploit workers, then you also have to boycott Apple Computer, McDonalds, General Electric, At&T, etc. Also, any of the hundreds of companies who set up customer support call centers in India dumped tens of thousands of USA employees in order to exploit cheap labor in India. If you are going to boycott all multinationals who exploit workers, you will have a long list.

    Also, give some serious thought to the potential negative effects of indexing wages to inflation. That is a something that sounds good to any worker, but if you can get stuck in endless inflation. Wages are a major factor in the cost of most goods, which is a driver of inflation. You can never stay ahead if all wages are indexed to inflation. That just keeps your earning power even with inflation, but it also feeds inflation. And if you are going to do that, then you have to also index wage decreases to times of deflation and economic stagnation. Cycles of high and low inflation are a natural part of a free market business cycle. There has always been roughly an 8-year business cycle--except for times when government starts messing with the economy. That screws up the cycles.

    You are absolutely correct about how wrong it is to have people of equal skills getting paid vastly different wages, but that is 100% due to government unions and their symbiotic relationship with Democrats. Ultimately, the taxpayers are on the hook for the bill and the main winners are the Democrats who are subsidized indirectly with taxpayer funds. The money flows like this: taxpayer --> government worker --> union --> donations to Democrats.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    Think about it. If you are going to boycott all multinational corporations that exploit workers, then you also have to boycott Apple Computer, McDonalds, General Electric, At&T, etc. Also, any of the hundreds of companies who set up customer support call centers in India dumped tens of thousands of USA employees in order to exploit cheap labor in India. If you are going to boycott all multinationals who exploit workers, you will have a long list.
    I will boycott as much as I can, after all it is my money and I give my money in accordance to my philosophy. If people were doing the same, they will have helped the companies to create jobs in US instead of China, india, etc.

    You can never stay ahead if all wages are indexed to inflation.
    You just put me a smile on my face In France it is the law for decades...And it doesn't handicap the companies to be successful, it is just political. Inflation destroy savings, currency buying power. Inflation is a shadow taxation that people pay every year for decades, that's why credit is so popular, people can spend the money they don't make. This is a vicious circle that affect the most vulnerable at the end.


    You always talk about union but it is not different the other side.
    These CEOs Make A 1000 Times More Than Their Average Employee
    It's no secret that CEO's make big money. But it can be truly shocking to see how much more they make than the people that work for them.

    CEO Pay Ratios - Business Insider



  7. #17
    During the majority of my life, inflation in the USA was ahead of average wage growth. It certainly was throughout the 1970s and during the recent years. That actually suppressed wage growth, but kept the economy stronger. The official inflation number in the USA is artificial because it does not factor in many common necessities.

    I was going to add a comment about the concept of wages indexed to inflation being a socialist concept, but you did that for me. If all products in France were produced in France with French labor, and wages were indexed directly to inflation, and normal performance-related wage increases were also considered, they would get themselves into an inflationary spiral. The way to avoid that is to produce products using cheaper labor to reduce product costs, which reduces inflation, which also means driving labor to China. If inflation is 3% and everyone's wages are raised by 3%, then the labor cost of all goods is raised by 3%, which creates inflation. The cycle then continues to repeat.

    You have to also consider the fact that France does well in the world market with a few luxury items and quality-based products, but their labor costs are prohibitive for the overwhelming majority of products produced. That problem exists across most of socialist Europe.

    How is the wage indexing handled in France? Is that a minimum wage increase or is it on top of a normal performance-related wage increase? I don't remember inflation being a factor in my former employer's office in Paris, but that was in the early 1990s. I didn't see the all the wages, but I did write several performance reviews.
    Last edited by TopDogger; 2 June, 2013 at 13:01 PM.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  8. Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    Think about it. If you are going to boycott all multinational corporations that exploit workers, then you also have to boycott Apple Computer, McDonalds, General Electric, At&T, etc. Also, any of the hundreds of companies who set up customer support call centers in India dumped tens of thousands of USA employees in order to exploit cheap labor in India. If you are going to boycott all multinationals who exploit workers, you will have a long list
    I'm not a huge fan of cutting off my nose to spite my face, but voting with your pocketbook, in my opinion, sometimes carries more weight than a vote. Apple Computer, for example, has always been a completely isolationist organization that heavily supports leftist causes, sues innovators in court based on ridiculously worded patents, and farms all of it's production to shops in China (Foxxconn) that support none of the very same worker protections they claim to support here in the US. Google's Android platform, on the other hand, is completely open and has a myriad of hardware developers cranking out devices of every shape and size to join in the market. I suspect Google's politics lean left, considering its location and the dollars it's employees gave to Obama, but it doesn't seem institutionalized like it is/was at apple. Software developers don't have to run every piece of software they write through an "approval committee" like they do at Apple, which means the Android platform has an order of magnitude more software available to it. As a result, I don't spend my money with Apple which, as I pointed out, doesn't mean Google get's my money either. It could go to Motorola, HTC, Samsung, Nokia, or one of 100 other handset manufacturers.

    Most people make these types of decisions without thinking about them every day. Unfortunately, choice is being taken away from us with the help of our leaders. Did you know that when you roll through a grocery store, most of what you buy are products produced by one of three companies? Buying a cell phone? Your choices are TMO(Duetche Telecom) AT&T, Verizon, and Sprint. Banking? Dodd/Frank and our lending practices have helped/are helping put all but the big boys out of business, so most are with Wells, Chase, or BofA.

    I had never bought a thing from Chic-Fil-A until the left tried to boycott the restaurant over the CEO's political beliefs. I generally try to avoid fast food. When I heard about the boycott, I went on over and ordered a sandwich to discover the food was fairly fresh (for fast food), the workers spoke english (unlike most establishments in California), and they got my order right, which is a rarity these days.

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    During the majority of my life, inflation in the USA was ahead of average wage growth. It certainly was throughout the 1970s and during the recent years. That actually suppressed wage growth, but kept the economy stronger. The official inflation number in the USA is artificial because it does not factor in many common necessities.
    Inflation has many different causes, from raw material increases, gov deficits increases, public corporations making more money after they builded a monopoly, etc Wages increases in US are extremely slow, and if you take a look at the buying power destruction, you will see the results of that.

    I was going to add a comment about the concept of wages indexed to inflation being a socialist concept, but you did that for me.
    Perhaps it is a concept to index wages regarding the inflation, but l'INSEE (National Institute of Statistics and Economic Studies - France) do not index inflation on every products like you seems to present that, it is based on the 255 necessary products. They create this a long time ago to protect the most vulnerable. Is it socialist? I am not sure of that. Is it socialist to protect the most vulnerable people?

    You have to also consider the fact that France does well in the world market with a few luxury items and quality-based products, but their labor costs are prohibitive for the overwhelming majority of products produced. That problem exists across most of socialist Europe.
    So according to you it is socialist to pay well highly skilled wokers? I disagree with you on this.

    How is the wage indexing handled in France? Is that a minimum wage increase or is it on top of a normal performance-related wage increase? I don't remember inflation being a factor in my former employer's office in Paris, but that was in the early 1990s. I didn't see the all the wages, but I did write several performance reviews.
    It is a mandated factor, it is the law to increase all wages according to the INSEE official percentage every year.


    The results are here, look at the worker performance, The French are the best productive workers in the world and I don't say that because I am French French: The Most Productive People In The World - Business Insider

    When the workers are motivated and well protected with benefits, they perform extremely well.

    I worked with American workers, I can tell you that there is a big difference of productivity, perhaps it is the way they are treated by their US employers.

    Winning is not about working hard. It's about working smart...and less. As the French know well

  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
    So according to you it is socialist to pay well highly skilled wokers? I disagree with you on this.
    Not at all. I did not say that. But it is socialist when the government sets the wage increases and it is not driven my market forces, such as actual demand for labor. Are you saying that France does not have a socialist government? Being socialist is not an insult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
    The results are here, look at the worker performance, The French are the best productive workers in the world and I don't say that because I am French French: The Most Productive People In The World - Business Insider
    I don't particularly want to debate this with you, and I don't want to spoil the debate with an argument. This is a matter of opinion and the way that you measure it. The GDP per capita probably factors in a large percentage of the high priced luxury items that I mentioned earlier. If the cost of overall cost of goods is high, the GDP is an inflated number. That is driven by a subset of the overall work force, and not the workforce as a whole.

    France is #36 in that report based on raw GDP per capita. The twist is when they look at it based upon average hours worked. That makes France more productive on an hourly basis, but when you are looking at the contribution per worker to the economy, the hours worked are not really relevant, except to the workers.

    According to the World Bank, the GDP per capita for France in US$ is $42,379. Germany is $44,021. The USA is $48,112. They tell us in the USA that we have the most productive workforce in the world, but the Nationwide report shows the USA at #13. The small country of Liechtenstein ($134,915 ) appears to be way ahead of the rest of the world regardless of whose data you use. I am not even sure what Liechtenstein produces, but it is probably some type of luxury goods.

    http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

    Statistics can be viewed and manipulated in multiple ways. A real, relevant number is sometimes hard to find.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


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