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Thread: 95% of SEO companies are running a B2B Scam

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Elements View Post
    Well, I prefered to say many instead of putting down a specific number. But I can tell you from my personal experience that all SEO companies I contacted the two first years I was in business, never planned to work on my site. All of their work were limited and they were willing to optimize only a few keywords/keyphrases, that's it.
    No offense, but you must have picked a real bunch of losers. A legitimate SEO company will either train you how to do it right or they will have programmers who actually work on your site. No one can really optimize a site without actually optimizing the site itself. Half of the SEO equation deals with on-site problems, which includes cleaning up the code, optimizing content and making sure that all of the elements that spiders seek are in place. The other half deals with offsite issues, such as quality link building. The first sign of trouble with an SEO company should have been when they weren't going to work on your site.

    I agree that it's good to warn newbies. A lot of people who came to me over the years had already been burned by the scammers.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    The first sign of trouble with an SEO company should have been when they weren't going to work on your site.
    Another factor we didn't talk is the price of this service. From my requests it went from $300 to $500 per month with a setup fees between $3000 to $5000. I even found a few SEO companies that did not want to work for our company lol
    None ot them were talking about the Return of Investment (ROI) which indicate a red flag.
    I mean in most cases the price wasn't their main concern rather than telling us the techniques or the kind of work they were planning to do.

    Like you said and I agree with you that there are some red flags when they aren't going to work on the site.

    Anyway, I found that it was much smarter to learn the SEO techniques myself, and compete than let our business in someone else hands.

    The Americans have an expression about that: "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself", which is very true
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  3. #13
    TopDogger - you are absolutely correct the original article was written with an agenda, To tell Business owners that SEO doesnt work unless they have a website that has proven to convert the traffic into sales.

    It is very interesting to me that you have been in the industry for 14 years and you acknowledge that the SEO industry has to your estimates 60% of companies proliferating this B2B scam.

    I have fired many SEO companies, I have worked for several and witnessed firsthand how they operate. I am not saying that everyone is a scam but I have yet to find even 1 that proves me different. Now I am working on several projects cleaning up all of the work that the SEO company left behind.


    I would disagree with some of you that SEO and conversion are not related. SEO is practiced for marketing purposes. Marketing should be performed in such a way to in some fashion create business for the marketer. Conversion and SEO should be symbiotic of each other. SEO should be practiced from a Conversion point of view, not the other way around.




    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    The article is interesting, but very biased and a bit misleading. It is a marketing pitch written by a company who is pushing an alternative approach. I see an obvious agenda that may be just as much of a scam as what they accuse others of doing. Based upon what I read, it is obvious that they are going to try to make every SEO project look like a scam.

    I fully agree that a lot of SEO companies aren't doing anything worthwhile for the money that they charge. But the legitimate players have never pushed the idea that more traffic is better. They have always promoted the concept of "targeted traffic", which is exactly what the company who wrote the article will do.

    A lot of legitimate SEO companies have moved into training in part because it is increasingly difficult to convince a company to spend thousands of dollars on SEO work with no guarantee of success. There is also a legal liability if an SEO does try to offer guarantees. It is much easier to train corporate web development teams how to use proper SEO techniques than it is to fix a web site that was horribly designed from the beginning by the same team. Most corporations have budgets for training, while SEO projects generally have to be approved as a special project.

    Given all of the changes with Google over the past several years, no one can legitimately offer guarantees. That does leave much of the market to the scammers who prey on naive web site owners.



    An excellent point. There is an old saying that goes, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink." Even with targeted traffic, the problem with conversions is frequently one of a poor product presentation or a mix of products that just don't sell well. There is also the issue of the recession. We see a lot of web sites where the targeted traffic is steady or increasing, but the sales are declining because people are hesitant to spend money.
    CEO - Funnel Science
    Applying Behavioral Science to Websites creating
    the Most Effective Internet Marketing
    Check it out at: http://www.funnelscience.com

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Bradley View Post
    I would disagree with some of you that SEO and conversion are not related. SEO is practiced for marketing purposes. Marketing should be performed in such a way to in some fashion create business for the marketer. Conversion and SEO should be symbiotic of each other. SEO should be practiced from a Conversion point of view, not the other way around.
    The goal should always be to drive targeted traffic that is searching for the products or services that a site offers. That alone should result in a higher conversion rate. However, more often than not when there is a conversion problem the site owner is offering products that people do not want or the products are overpriced or the product presentation is done very poorly or the shopping cart makes purchasing difficult. Those are conversion issues that are not related to SEO. They are, however, related to other marketing efforts put into the site.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  5. #15
    TopDogger - You have an interesting point of view, on what hand you acknowledge that the SEO industry is plagued with 60% (your estimate)of those scamming businesses. On the other you claim that the original author is running a scam by telling business owners to watch out for the SEO scam. I dont get it?


    I am the original author so I am very curious to hear your thoughts. Did you read the original press release or was this just your opinion based on no research?

    ---------- Post added at 18:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 18:08 PM ----------

    TopDogger

    I agree and you are correct that driving targeted traffic is key. I believe Conversion and SEO are more closely related than you may think. Or at least it should be...

    First, before you have website conversions, it is impossible to test traffic sources and determine if they are quality or targeted. You could have targeted traffic to a keyword that never generates sales.

    Once you have a website or page that is proven to convert, you can then test your SEO to determine if it is producing results.

    By focusing on website conversions, you can work in reverse thru the website funnel to determine if the SEO is generating traffic that converts into sales. You can also determine which keywords lead to sales and which dont.

    Then the SEO goal would be to develop traffic sources that convert the traffic into sales.

    The problem inherent with SEO is that it doesnt work this way. SEO focuses on generating traffic, not conversions.
    CEO - Funnel Science
    Applying Behavioral Science to Websites creating
    the Most Effective Internet Marketing
    Check it out at: http://www.funnelscience.com

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Bradley View Post
    TopDogger - You have an interesting point of view, on what hand you acknowledge that the SEO industry is plagued with 60% (your estimate)of those scamming businesses. On the other you claim that the original author is running a scam by telling business owners to watch out for the SEO scam. I dont get it?
    I absolutely did read the press release. No offense intended, Marcus, but you are making an unfounded claim that 95% of SEO companies are running a scam. If that were true, almost no one in the industry would be honest. The facts are that there are a lot of good players out there who do a good job with web sites. There is also a pretty clear agenda in the press release to convince site owners that they are being scammed by whoever is doing their SEO work. Yes, there are a lot of scammers in this business. What we disagree on is the percentage of bad SEO companies.

    The problem with the press release is that it reads like a marketing pitch with a clear agenda to show site owners that almost everyone they have been working with is ripping them off. That is negative marketing.

    Most SEO companies are focused strictly on on rankings. Most good SEO companies focus on driving targeted traffic, which is what I think your objective is. The problem is not the message itself, but rather how the message is delivered. The 95% number is what raised the red flags for me, because I don't think you can back that up. If the title read, "Most SEO Companies are Running a B2B Scam," we would probably be in full agreement.

    Now if your experiences have been like mine where a lot of people who come to you have had prior bad experiences with the SEO scammers, it might appear that 95% of SEO companies are running a scam.

    The bulk of my business is doing both training and web site evaluations. I also have over 30 years of programing experience. We see a wide range of web sites with a wider range of good and bad SEO techniques.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  7. #17
    From my experience, I have yet to find even one person or company that does SEO that can put their money where there mouth is. I have fired 4 SEO companies. I have worked directly for an SEO company and watched how they made reports look great yet their clients had no ROI to show for it. I have been in internet marketing and ECommerce Sales for 11 years.

    My experience has been 100% of SEO companies are running a scam. I venture that only 5% are legit, yet I have not been able to find one.

    SEO is flawed because traffic, even targeted traffic doenst mean more sales. If your website has not first proven to convert traffic into sales, SEO will always be worthless no matter the quality or how targeted it may be.

    Here is an analogy: A website that doesnt convert is like a store being filled with stuff that no one wants to buy. If a website is not making leads or sales, it full of stuff that no one wants.

    So if you send traffic to a site that no one likes, then you will never get sales.

    I have never meet an SEO expert or SEO professional that has ever spoken about focusing on website conversion and testing pages prior to SEO implementation. I am in business for 1 reason only. A return on investment. SEO equals traffic. Conversions equal a return on investment.
    CEO - Funnel Science
    Applying Behavioral Science to Websites creating
    the Most Effective Internet Marketing
    Check it out at: http://www.funnelscience.com

  8. #18
    I completely understand why you have fired four SEO companies. You've chosen the wrong companies. I have been doing this a long time and no one has ever fired me, refused to pay me or taken me to court for non performance of my contracts. In part that's because I don't make promises that I cannot keep and I do not trap customers into long term contracts. I usually tell a client when there isn't anything more that I can do for their site.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Bradley View Post
    I have never meet an SEO expert or SEO professional that has ever spoken about focusing on website conversion and testing pages prior to SEO implementation. I am in business for 1 reason only. A return on investment. SEO equals traffic. Conversions equal a return on investment.
    Many professional Internet Marketing companies do focus on ROI. That's the end game of the entire mix of services. It has been preached by the industry gurus for many years. I like what you offer, but it is not as unique as you may think.

    Marcus, I think that you may be looking at SEO and Marketing as being the same thing. They are not the same, but are both under the same larger umbrella called Internet Marketing. A lot of people confuse sales and marketing. They are also not the same. The basic functions of SEO do not focus on website conversions. The SEO is the part that leads the horse to water. Good marketing convinces the horse to drink. A good Internet marketing company provides both services, but they are not the same service nor do they have the same goals. One gets the users in the door, and the other converts them into customers. You seem to understand that part, but you expect pure SEO companies (not Internet Marketing companies) to do both. SEO stands for search engine optimization, not customer conversion optimization. You are condemning all SEO companies because they do not perform a function that is not their function to perform unless they offer both services. If a client wants both services, they should be going to an Internet marketing company.

    I think it is great that you focus on ROI. The industry needs more of that. But if a web site offers a good product at a fair price, makes a good product presentation and does not hinder sales, good SEO will lead to higher conversions and a stronger ROI. You can't pull the cart without the horse. We can agree to disagree, but from my perspective they are separate issues and skills.
    Last edited by TopDogger; 12 April, 2011 at 11:07 AM.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


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