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Thread: AMERICA TODAY: 3 Million Overlords And 300 Million Serfs

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    All prices in a free market are determined by supply and demand. A CEO does not set his compensation. The Board of Directors does that. They frequently pay way too much to assure they get the best leaders. Sometimes they do get the best and they manage to turn a company around, sometimes they don't. If the increased profits exceed the cost of the CEO, it was probably a good decision.
    I believe it is much more political to pay CEO and executives millions than reward the managers, workers and employes.

    Let's talk about free market for a moment. First of all, in my opinion the free market is only valid nationally, parity will destroy the concept of global free market ideology anyway. In the free market you still need some smart regulations, otherwise it would be the jungle. Markets are manipulated as you may know by speculators and that's why commodities are so high, because the guys like JP Morgan (1500 traders for commodities managed by former executive Blythe Masters) made billions for the bank. Goldman Sachs bought for themselves commodities corporations to speculate, then sold to manufacturers the raw materials. As you can see with a few examples above, there is no free market, and I don't think with the greed of these people it will ever be a free market. Look also to all precious metals like gold and silver, banks sell more paper certificates than what they have in possession. In many cases, the whole thing is fraud legalized.

    In a normal, healthy economy, no one with skills works for minimum wage. That is an entry level job. You are supposed to build your skills so that you can move up. My point is that too many people never do anything to increase their skills or their value to an employer.

    I find the striking fast food worker issue to be laughable. Unions are trying to organize fast food workers and are demanding a $15 per hour wage. If they are successful, employees at fast food restaurants all over the country will rush to unionize. Most consumers do not understand that the increased food production cost will be passed on to them.
    I agree with you that minimum wage is an entry level job, still a lot of people are experienced and skilled and start at minimum wage. There is a lot of abuses about the minimum wage, unbelievable that multi national corporation hire at minimum wage...

    You know, you have to ask more to get less, it seems like you are not familiar with unions negotiations. I never saw an employer accepting what an union asked lol it is a way of starting negotiations.

    There is something I don't understand about the Republicans, they are talking about individual liberties and freedom which is great, but in their corporations they are doing something completely different, they do not promote individual performance, motivational rewards, etc they tend to apply a Socialist policy by putting a prince on the position instead of individual performance, gratifications, etc
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Franc Tireur View Post
    I believe it is much more political to pay CEO and executives millions than reward the managers, workers and employes.
    I have never seen politics play a role in executive pay. A Board pays what they feel they have to pay to get the best people. There are some dishonest companies who may be doing that, but the bottom line is that no company can pay workers more than the jobs are worth without seriously affecting their survivability. You can do it when business is good, but for most companies and the economy, profits and good times are cyclical. The bottom of the cycle clears out the companies who either do not a plan, or have cost that are too high, or are paying workers too much. The huge decline in union members in the USA is not due to companies dumping unions, but rather union wages driving companies into bankruptcy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franc Tireur View Post
    Let's talk about free market for a moment. First of all, in my opinion the free market is only valid nationally, parity will destroy the concept of global free market ideology anyway. In the free market you still need some smart regulations, otherwise it would be the jungle. Markets are manipulated as you may know by speculators and that's why commodities are so high, because the guys like JP Morgan (1500 traders for commodities managed by former executive Blythe Masters) made billions for the bank. Goldman Sachs bought for themselves commodities corporations to speculate, then sold to manufacturers the raw materials. As you can see with a few examples above, there is no free market, and I don't think with the greed of these people it will ever be a free market. Look also to all precious metals like gold and silver, banks sell more paper certificates than what they have in possession. In many cases, the whole thing is fraud legalized.
    The free market only works when the players are honest and ethical. Th Chinese have seriously screwed up the concept of free markets because they manipulate everything in their favor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franc Tireur View Post
    I agree with you that minimum wage is an entry level job, still a lot of people are experienced and skilled and start at minimum wage. There is a lot of abuses about the minimum wage, unbelievable that multi national corporation hire at minimum wage...
    This does not happen in a healthy economy. The only multinational companies that I have ever heard of that pay minimum wage in the USA are fast food restaurants and some discount stores. Walmart pays above minimum wage. Being a multinational company does not necessarily mean that the company is profitable. Even small wage increases in large companies reduce profits by millions of dollars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franc Tireur View Post
    You know, you have to ask more to get less, it seems like you are not familiar with unions negotiations. I never saw an employer accepting what an union asked lol it is a way of starting negotiations.
    That is correct, but unions always try to ratchet wages up beyond what a company can reasonably afford without regard for the long-term effect on the company. I grew up in a very strong union city (Chicago) and was a member of the Teamsters and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers before I was 20 years old. I also went to high school with the sons of most of the local crime syndicate bosses. Today, many of the guys I went went to school with run the unions. Unions are still mostly syndicate run operations. Most of the crime syndicate in the USA went legitimate in the 1950s and took over unions, casinos, trash collection companies and shopping malls.

    Like I said, the decline in union membership in the USA has not been due to companies dumping unions. It has been due to unions bankrupting companies and entire industries by driving wages so high that the companies could no longer compete.

    Quote Originally Posted by Franc Tireur View Post
    There is something I don't understand about the Republicans, they are talking about individual liberties and freedom which is great, but in their corporations they are doing something completely different, they do not promote individual performance, motivational rewards, etc they tend to apply a Socialist policy by putting a prince on the position instead of individual performance, gratifications, etc
    You are making a huge mistake by thinking that corporations are backed mostly by Republicans. Walmart, Tyson Foods and many other major corporations are very strong backers of Democrats. Hilliary sat on the Board of Directors for both of these companies when Bill was governor of Arkansas.

    Republicans back business in general because they understand that business IS the economy. When businesses are doing well economically, everyone who wants to work is doing well economically. Democrats seem to think that government is the economy. The fact is that almost all Republicans support equality of opportunity for all people, while Democrats push for equality of outcome.

    Where someone works has nothing to do with personal liberties. Your most important personal liberty is the ability to work somewhere else if you do not feel you are fairly treated. No one is forcing anyone to work for any company for low wages. The overwhelming number of major companies in the USA do pay good wages and offer performance bonuses. I am not sure why you think they don't. I worked for several major corporations and was a marketing executive for an international company, and have never seen the type of abuses that you appear to think are commonplace.


    We need to shorten these debates. They are getting too long and windy.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  3. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    I have never seen politics play a role in executive pay. A Board pays what they feel they have to pay to get the best people. There are some dishonest companies who may be doing that, but the bottom line is that no company can pay workers more than the jobs are worth without seriously affecting their survivability. You can do it when business is good, but for most companies and the economy, profits and good times are cyclical. The bottom of the cycle clears out the companies who either do not a plan, or have cost that are too high, or are paying workers too much. The huge decline in union members in the USA is not due to companies dumping unions, but rather union wages driving companies into bankruptcy.

    The free market only works when the players are honest and ethical. Th Chinese have seriously screwed up the concept of free markets because they manipulate everything in their favor.

    This does not happen in a healthy economy. The only multinational companies that I have ever heard of that pay minimum wage in the USA are fast food restaurants and some discount stores. Walmart pays above minimum wage. Being a multinational company does not necessarily mean that the company is profitable. Even small wage increases in large companies reduce profits by millions of dollars.


    That is correct, but unions always try to ratchet wages up beyond what a company can reasonably afford without regard for the long-term effect on the company. I grew up in a very strong union city (Chicago) and was a member of the Teamsters and the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers before I was 20 years old. I also went to high school with the sons of most of the local crime syndicate bosses. Today, many of the guys I went went to school with run the unions. Unions are still mostly syndicate run operations. Most of the crime syndicate in the USA went legitimate in the 1950s and took over unions, casinos, trash collection companies and shopping malls.

    Like I said, the decline in union membership in the USA has not been due to companies dumping unions. It has been due to unions bankrupting companies and entire industries by driving wages so high that the companies could no longer compete.


    You are making a huge mistake by thinking that corporations are backed mostly by Republicans. Walmart, Tyson Foods and many other major corporations are very strong backers of Democrats. Hilliary sat on the Board of Directors for both of these companies when Bill was governor of Arkansas.

    Republicans back business in general because they understand that business IS the economy. When businesses are doing well economically, everyone who wants to work is doing well economically. Democrats seem to think that government is the economy. The fact is that almost all Republicans support equality of opportunity for all people, while Democrats push for equality of outcome.

    Where someone works has nothing to do with personal liberties. Your most important personal liberty is the ability to work somewhere else if you do not feel you are fairly treated. No one is forcing anyone to work for any company for low wages. The overwhelming number of major companies in the USA do pay good wages and offer performance bonuses. I am not sure why you think they don't. I worked for several major corporations and was a marketing executive for an international company, and have never seen the type of abuses that you appear to think are commonplace.


    We need to shorten these debates. They are getting too long and windy.
    I meant policy of company to reward a certain category of employees, CEO and executive rather than all the people working in the company. Well, I am not sure about what you said on union wages driving companies into bankruptcy. Look General Motors, the company laid off workers well paid ok, when they restructured the company, they were still pay union workers $28 an hour. Maybe they were hit by the crumbling demands, but they basically didn't touch the wages. Many corporations who are forced to re structure their companies or sold to another corporation like for example the Credit cards operation of HSBC in US was sold to Capital One (My wife worked in HSBC, so I know a little) kept the employees, reduced the wages and any new hiring are paid 30% ~ 50% less than 15 years ago. You know like me that credit cards companies are making a lot of money, they borrow from the Fed at less than 1% and jack up the rate of your credit card from 12% from the people with a very good credit history to 29% or more depending of the credit card company. Late fees raised, international fees raised, ATM fees raised, cash withdraws raised, etc

    When I was working in Pre Press, many companies decided to invest in high tech, which mean more production, finished products were the same price and wages were increased by a fews bucks. Than the Mac took over, all the editors bought these technologies internally and all the little companies went to bankruptcy like a card game. But the astonishing part is that editors trained their own people on Mac save them a lot of money, and didn't reduce the price of the magazines, brochures, ads for newspapers, etc And it is the same principal for other products, cost reduction do not favor the customers/consumers, but only CEO, executives and shareholders.

    As far as multi national corporations ranking in the S&P 500 index, I can tell you that some of them have money to buy cash other corporations, give decent dividends to shareholders and are still pay low wages employees, most of them educated.

    I tried to make it short this time
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  4. #14
    I am also going to give you what the scum retail stores are doing in France, I don't know if here in US they are doing the same thing, but it will give you the degree of honesty in business. This is not some isolated cases, they all do more or less these practices.

    You know like me that manufacturers marketing department often make some promotions on their products. in retail, the trick is in fact a scam but it is what they do. When they receive the merchandises in promotion from the manufacturers, they remove the coupons, they unpack the product in promotion (so there is none), they manipulate the prices tag preposition in the ailes, they charge products the customers didn't buy, in some case they replace the selling dateline, the price in the ailes do not match the prices scanned, etc

    Look all the successful businesses, they all do not show total honesty and ethics!
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  5. #15
    Should we talk about multi national corporations spendings in Lobbying?

    Lobbying Database

    http://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/

    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  6. #16
    In the USA you are more likely to find slave driver owners paying minimum wage in small businesses than you are in large multinational corporations. It is a matter of survival for them, just the same as with large companies, but a lot os small owners do not know much about running a business or managing people.

    You are going to find good and bad employers in every industry, but the bad tend to be the exception, rather than what is normal.

    I don't agree with lobbying either, but the USA Supreme Court says it is a matter of freedom of speech, which is protected by our Constitution. That chart you linked to just shows the total number of lobbyists. It doesn't break it down by industry types, but you will find lobbyists representing almost every industry, including unions, environmentalists, energy companies, pharmaceuticals, pro-gun, anti-gun, agriculture, etc. I think lobbying is the most corrupting factor in our political system.

    Try looking at the chart ranked by top spenders. Lobbying Spending Database | OpenSecrets

    It is curious that the US Chamber of Commerce is #1 and Google is #13.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


  7. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by TopDogger View Post
    In the USA you are more likely to find slave driver owners paying minimum wage in small businesses than you are in large multinational corporations. It is a matter of survival for them, just the same as with large companies, but a lot os small owners do not know much about running a business or managing people.

    You are going to find good and bad employers in every industry, but the bad tend to be the exception, rather than what is normal.

    I don't agree with lobbying either, but the USA Supreme Court says it is a matter of freedom of speech, which is protected by our Constitution. That chart you linked to just shows the total number of lobbyists. It doesn't break it down by industry types, but you will find lobbyists representing almost every industry, including unions, environmentalists, energy companies, pharmaceuticals, pro-gun, anti-gun, agriculture, etc. I think lobbying is the most corrupting factor in our political system.

    Try looking at the chart ranked by top spenders. Lobbying Spending Database | OpenSecrets

    It is curious that the US Chamber of Commerce is #1 and Google is #13.
    I agree with you Top, to get the best vision possible, you have to take the good and the bad, too often people on the right ignore the bad practices and some injustices from corporations. What I did is just expose a few things, because I believe we can do better than that. If some corporations decide to stop dividing employees and take a look on how to offer a better wages for the most economically vulnerable employees, then it will be a great step.

    What we really need is a book like The Michelin Guide for corporations, so people can know a little bit about the company and have a Pros & Con rating.

    I looked the link you mentioned yesterday, pretty impressive to find that corporations find the money when they have a special interest, it would be great to use this money for employees and workers...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  8. #18
    I'm about as "free-market" as they come... but for whatever reason the gap between the income of the typical working man and the guys at the top has increased vastly over the last 50 years. I don't know what the answer is, but I'd like to know the cause so we can figure out if there's a reasonable fix.

    Government intrusion as a general rule causes more problems than it fixes, but my thought is the cause may in fact be related to changes in legislation... in which government is largely responsible. The CEO of a publicly held company *should* make a lot more than his workers, but thru interlocking directorates and good ole boy networks the guys at the upper end award each other excessive bonuses and remuneration that far outweigh their contribution to the stockholder's well being.

    If stockholders felt they had a voice they'd never approve the current compensation packages of most execs. Unfortunately as the system is set, the stockholders largely have no recourse because the directors are in on the looting. It really IS an issue, and it really does need to be addressed.
    -- Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup. --

  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by robjones View Post
    I'm about as "free-market" as they come... but for whatever reason the gap between the income of the typical working man and the guys at the top has increased vastly over the last 50 years. I don't know what the answer is, but I'd like to know the cause so we can figure out if there's a reasonable fix.

    Government intrusion as a general rule causes more problems than it fixes, but my thought is the cause may in fact be related to changes in legislation... in which government is largely responsible. The CEO of a publicly held company *should* make a lot more than his workers, but thru interlocking directorates and good ole boy networks the guys at the upper end award each other excessive bonuses and remuneration that far outweigh their contribution to the stockholder's well being.

    If stockholders felt they had a voice they'd never approve the current compensation packages of most execs. Unfortunately as the system is set, the stockholders largely have no recourse because the directors are in on the looting. It really IS an issue, and it really does need to be addressed.
    Until there is an oligarchy in each western country who consolidate their own interests without limit, it will be difficult to restrict the policy of these multi national corporations. The bailouts were exactly that, the oligarchy saving their own interests with the taxpayers money.

    Honestly, either the markets will contract drastically or social unrest will appear.

    I see a few issues that can be fixed. Forbid business banks like JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, etc to buy for themselves raw materials to speculate and sell it to manufacturers, and establish a reasonable ratio between shareholders, CEO, executives, managers, workers and employees in corporations. I think the SEC is working on that, but their plans are still in papers.

    Speculation take in hostage all the people and particularly the most vulnerable. For example, when the JP Morgan buy all the Cacao from Africa or huge amount of coffee for themselves to speculate, it is 30% more to the consumers. Some price increases are pure speculation. You can see that in all commodities, banks buying super tankers companies, buying crude oil, gold, silver, food, anything people need.

    Unfortunately, only the government could do something against this, they have the power to tax, and to forbid, Congress could pass such laws to stop abuses.

    Also, the government should put an end to the credit default swap and derivatives who represent many times the world GDP, all of that are frauds from the bankers. If there is a financial collapse, it will be an apocalypse never seen before.

    The reason some mainstream media say that the economy is better and blah blah blah is a big lie, in fact the bankers are afraid that people cash out their money, sell their investments, etc, because they abused the system so far, they cannot fix it. The Fed is printing 90 billions per month for more than one year now, and sadly there are so few results. They should give the money to the people, it will boost the economy in a better way, and immediately.
    Last edited by Franc Tireur; 10 October, 2013 at 18:41 PM.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.

    Voltaire


  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by robjones View Post
    I'm about as "free-market" as they come... but for whatever reason the gap between the income of the typical working man and the guys at the top has increased vastly over the last 50 years. I don't know what the answer is, but I'd like to know the cause so we can figure out if there's a reasonable fix.
    The USA does not have the worst income gap problem in the world. Credit that to Russia. They have come a long way from Communism rather quickly, but I'm not sure what to call what they have today.

    If You Think Wealth Disparity Is Bad Here, Look At Russia : Parallels : NPR

    Quote Originally Posted by robjones View Post
    Government intrusion as a general rule causes more problems than it fixes, but my thought is the cause may in fact be related to changes in legislation... in which government is largely responsible. The CEO of a publicly held company *should* make a lot more than his workers, but thru interlocking directorates and good ole boy networks the guys at the upper end award each other excessive bonuses and remuneration that far outweigh their contribution to the stockholder's well being.

    If stockholders felt they had a voice they'd never approve the current compensation packages of most execs. Unfortunately as the system is set, the stockholders largely have no recourse because the directors are in on the looting. It really IS an issue, and it really does need to be addressed.
    Most shareholders don't seem to care as long as they are receiving reasonable returns on their investment. But when the investments fail and people lose money, the mood changes rather quickly.

    An exclusive club definitely exists at the top. According so some of the One World Order theories I've read, they just throw the rest of us enough crumbs to keep the people from rioting. Given the growing evidence of FEMA camps in remote areas, as well as Obama's grossly excessive purchases of firearms, riot gear and ammunition (over 2 billion rounds in the last report), there may be an expectation that they will soon lose control of all of the little people.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin


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